Episode 246 – A Look at ‘Tuesdays in Jail’ and How Journaling Transforms Lives with Tina Welling

You are tuned into the Jackson hole, connection, sharing, fascinating stories

of people connected to Jackson Hole.

I am truly grateful for each of you for tuning in today and support

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I'll begin today's episode with a quote from Jonathan Lockwood,

Huey, forgive others, not because they deserve forgiveness, but

because you deserve peace.

And I pulled this quote from Tina's recent book, which we will

hear about on today's episode.

And welcome to episode number 246.

And today's guest is the author Tina Welling, who recently came out

with the book, Tuesdays in Jail.

Originally from Ohio.

Tina moved to this valley with her family over 40 years ago when there

were still many dirt streets and many of them didn't even have names.

A lot of Tina's book is about, the work that she did here in Teton County

with, the inmates about journaling.

And as a person who journals myself, I know the benefit from journaling.

But I've never approached journaling with great purpose, and after speaking

with Tina and also reading her book, I feel as though I can bring more

purpose and value to my journaling.

I hope for you all that you, find some value in it as well, her

book and, and this conversation.

after speaking with Tina, I realized that I need to allow myself, To visit my

inner self, which I've always struggled with, and I am grateful for the work that

Tina has put together in this book that she created from all of those years of

contributing to our community, again, with those inmates in the Teton County,

jail, lots of years, and now with her book, I feel we can all find peace,

purpose and meaning by allowing ourselves to connect with our inner selves.

Tina, for joining me here today at the Jackson Hole Connection.

It's delightful to be able to spend some time with you today.

I'm happy to be here Stefan.

Let's start off today, as I've started off all the past episodes of

you sharing Where were you born and raised, and how did you land here in

Jackson and how long have you been here?

So I've lived in Jackson 40 years.

I was raised mostly in Ohio, born in Toledo.

lived mostly in Cincinnati.

So we first came, uh, my husband and I, and, and two sons to Wyoming.

He was the director of the Wyoming Council the Arts for five years.

And one day we were hiking in Jackson and I said, you know, should live in the

place they think is the most beautiful.

And he said, okay.

Hmm

so that's how we landed here.

We just Hope didn't work out, and it did.

so you and your husband moved here with two boys.

How old were your kids when you guys moved here?

I'm a really good mother, but I never remember how old my children

are, but they were, you know, like in, um, early high school years,

And I, I love what you said.

If you're gonna live someplace, you might as well love the outdoors and, uh, you

know, the climate of, of where it is.

so you've been here for 40 years.

What was Jackson like for you and your family when you moved here 40 years ago?

Well, we moved here in the summertime and we worked, John, my husband and I

for the, uh, music festival with Margot Ling Tongue, and then that's when we

decided really loved the community.

We just loved the way the people use first names way they were.

awake to everything.

And that's when, I particularly felt like I would really like to be

a part of the business community.

So we began, uh, looking around for a small business that we could

buy and we, uh, ended up buying, small gift shop in Snow King Resort.

And at the time it was owned locally and the shop was, we named it

Rosebud, and we had that for 25 years.

Our boys worked in it and.

My husband and I ran it and it was just, um, a really nice thing that one of

the better parts at the time was that we got to close it for two months in

the spring and two months in the fall, and that's when I would do my writing.

Ah, beautiful.

I want to get back to how you mentioned people using first names,

how that, how you leaned into that.

But before I do, I have a very curious mind and I get off topic very easily.

So I'm gonna ask, when you all were running your gift shop at the snow

king, was that when was when the Clint Eastwood movie was filmed?

and they shot some of it at Snow King.

No, it was after that.

It

was after that.

Okay

after that.

I was just very curious.

Yep.

let's go back to people were using first names and you leaned into that.

Tell me what the meaning behind that, that messages.

It was community.

So, you know, it's like mountains are beautiful and I loved.

The wilderness and the way I felt in that for the first time.

the community, that sense of paying attention really struck

me, and it still does to this day.

just don't get too much past Jackson Hole community.

people that live here care about others who live here.

And did you see that back in, so you guys were living living in Toledo?

Correct.

No, I was just born in Toledo.

Your

moved here from um, Cincinnati

Oh, I got that backwards.

My apologies.

My apologies.

So you've, you were not feeling that you didn't, did you not see

that or feel that in Cincinnati?

It just wasn't a part of my life then.

I was a young mother and

Mm-hmm

I just was struck by the, the power of that here.

I think it is unique, yes.

And did that translate into your writing?

I don't know that it did particularly, um, writing's a very solitary, experience.

It's nice to have community around.

So I noticed that when I am deep into a long writing project, I

like knowing the community's doing interesting things and having events.

I just don't want to attend them.

, you know, I'm into my work.

I need to be solitary, but I like knowing all that's going on.

and with your writing, tell us, tell us about the genre of your,

your writing that you were doing then, and what you're doing now.

So I began writing, uh, just about everything.

Actually, I worked at a radio station before we moved to Jackson, so I

wrote commercials that were exactly . seconds long, not one second longer.

so I began writing poems that you could read in exactly 30

seconds, not one second longer.

then I finally just sort of, Moved into longer and longer pieces, and I found

myself completely taken by the novel form.

my first three books are novels.

They were published by, penguin Random House, after that I moved

into, , uh, writing nonfiction.

Uh, my next book was called Writing Wild, it was about that relationship

between the natural world and our own personal creative energy and how

we can learn about our per personal energy from that of the natural world.

I found that I really liked living in the When you're writing novels,

you're always looking through the.

, eyes of your characters and there's kind of, a shield.

There's something to learn from all of that, but there's also that

separates you a bit from reality.

Not being a writer, but being somebody who reads, can certainly see that

perspective reading nonfiction, you kind of become those characters and being in

the, in the world of, The non-fiction world where it's, it's the reality.

I, I certainly, you know, the fiction, the versus the non-fiction,

I certainly understand that difference

absolutely.

with writing about, in the wild, um, and that book.

So how many, Books have you written then?

Five.

My most recent book was published this past fall, and

it's called Tuesdays In Jail.

What I Learned teaching journaling to inmates.

Where were you doing journaling with inmates?

here at the Teton County Jail.

So I just started that about 11, 12 years ago.

went in on Tuesday nights and worked with the inmates, mostly men, and,

um, did that for seven years before I just had this real strong urge to

what I was learning with other people.

So I began to write the book

Mm-hmm

in Jail.

Then after.

doing my journaling workshops for seven years.

and are you still doing those journaling workshops?

I stopped doing them this past winter.

I had some personal, um, interruptions in my life

Mm-hmm

also I experiencing a kind of, um, . Oh.

Just change in my thinking, realizing that I needed, of like what I was saying about

writing fiction, I was looking at all the.

The things I was reading through the eyes of what I would be telling the inmates.

Hmm

all of the psychology books I was reading for my own interest, I

found myself translating for the inmates or particular inmates in

particular issues they were having.

So once again, I was kind of glancing off what I was learning

and I realized I need to.

Take that, um, more inwardly and that coincided with issues at the jail

that just, I couldn't quite change.

So I was, um, often repeating myself, constantly seeing new inmates and not

seeing the old ones for weeks later.

So there was a lack of continuity and it's just a situation that came

up and I couldn't do much about.

what did you learn from the inmates over all of those years?

Well, mainly I learned that we share the same issues.

You know, we're all struggling with the same kinds of things.

Anger, forgiveness ourselves and others.

Self-esteem.

That's a big issue for the inmates.

It's a big issue for most of us, I would say.

whatever with the inmates, I would end up going home and thinking, wait.

talking to myself there.

I I was sharing that same problem they have.

A more intense, difficult, struggle with these issues.

I get to have lots of distractions with my problems.

You know, it gets to be too much.

I can eat potato chips, I can turn on Netflix, I can read a novel.

It's not true with inmates.

They're just there themselves their sadnesses their issues and angers and.

Abuses and memories without any kind of distraction.

and did the journaling offer a distraction or what did the

journaling offer, I should say?

The journaling offered a chance to go inwards, you know, was a, a small library

the inmates, but that was really about it.

there's no real support for the problems that brought them to jail, which in

most cases, rooted in addiction, which is rooted in typically childhood abuse.

So when we journaled, I would ask them questions that

drew their attention inward.

So that they could put language to what was going on in their minds.

I would start every, every journaling workshop with questions, five of them,

and then we would talk about the answers, what they wrote about those things.

No one was ever pressured to.

read aloud what they had written, but they all wanted to, which

was my first biggest surprise was

Hmm

they really wanted to talk and they were fine about talking about the inner that

they were experiencing with each other.

And so that was, that was quite an awakening for me and I wish

there were more opportunities for that to happen for them.

appreciate your connection with people who are on the outside,

people who are not incarcerated.

We have the same issues as people who are incarcerated.

It's what our environment allows and our resources allow us of

how to deal with those things.

curiously, because you mentioned.

We all have anger and sadness and, and memories that are might not be pleasant.

what resources do people have that you are using with the inmates

can help people work through those issues that we all have?

Journaling.

Mm.

journaling, just starting with question that you don't necessarily expect

to have an answer for, but you'll gather more information about it.

This is how I feel.

Why do I feel like this?

What come up?

What feelings come up?

Just put language to it.

It's an amazing experience.

You just keep writing and writing and writing, and you

learn more about yourself.

Self-knowledge is powerful.

It's what we all want.

We want to have a kind of personal power, I think journaling is a

very good pathway toward that.

I agree . I started journaling several years ago and I don't get

to it every day, but I'd say three to four days a week I get to it.

I'm probably harder on myself for not doing it every day, it is an opportunity

for me to just put down thoughts.

I like what you, you said is just starting with a question that you don't have the

answer to and that's a great advice as, as far as a way to begin versus saying,

well, I don't know what to journal about.

We can overcomplicate it at times.

So let's talk about your book.

Well, first of all, can I just say please don't start your

journaling, feeling guilty.

There's no reason to have to journal any more than you do.

I let weeks go by before I journal.

Sometimes I journal when I have an issue that I just can't figure out, or a feeling

that bothers me or a relationship issue.

I just do it when I need to.

So use it as a gift.

ever connect guilt or shame with journaling, unless that's what you

wanna write about, and maybe that's a good thing for your next next session.

thank you, Tina.

I I appreciate those, those kind words.

very helpful.

We can all give ourselves a little grace.

Yes.

Yes.

So your, your book, long has Tuesday's in Jail been out?

Uh, it was released at the end of September, this past September.

And tell me about how it's been received with the general public.

you're a local author, but you've written many books.

What's been going on since you re released it in September?

I released it in September and I had to move the 1st of October.

So I'm afraid that a lot of promotion has just been set aside.

have a wonderful publishing company, new World Library, and a

publicist that works with me there.

And so thanks to her.

She set up many things for me to do, but uh, life has just

been, um, little chaotic.

Since the book was released and, promotion is not my favorite part.

The writing is my favorite part.

Talking about the book, I love to talk about the book.

I love to talk about inmates and journaling and creative energy.

to just push a book, hmm, you know, I'm not so good at that and it

doesn't interest me, and I'm afraid I don't even follow the sales numbers.

Well, you, I think, won an award for the book.

Yes, I did.

I won Nautilus book award and, and I'm really pleased about that because,

it's, a prize for the category of memoir and personal journey, is just

exactly what Tuesday's in jail is.

It's very much.

A memoir, very much my personal journey while I'm talking all the time about

the inmates, and I like the idea that, Nautilus book awards are about.

creating a better world.

I think their, motto is better books for a better World.

And so their subjects are always, conscious living, spiritual growth,

community, that kind of thing that, they have for their category.

So yeah, I'm pleased and I get a shiny gold sticker for my book.

my friends I was gonna wear it on my forehead for a while.

I think you should

I, I think you should.

And you said that you love talking about your book and, um, you

love talking about the inmates.

Have you heard of this type of program that you had started here happening

in, in other, uh, jails as well?

No, I haven't.

I hadn't heard of that.

I Googled, I tried to find information for that.

of course, do have some creative writing programs.

Again, I never encountered any journaling programs, but they have

inmates who are incarcerated for years and years, county jails.

at least the Teton County Jail.

The longest anyone is incarcerated is one year any longer than that.

If their sentence is any longer than that, they are sent elsewhere.

So, people come and go.

They're there typically for months.

I don't know where I got the idea really.

I can go back and remember when it occurred to me.

I was sitting on my porch swing reading a lot of Joseph Campbell.

the hero's journey and that centerpiece that he refers

to as the belly of the whale.

When we are just kind of cut off from our usual way of knowing ourselves.

We're new parents, we're taking care of our elderly parents.

We've moved someplace new, or we've begun a new job.

It's a situation in which we just don't know ourselves.

Struck me as being the epitome of incarceration.

You know, the inmates are just stripped of their clothes, their jewelry.

they go in with, total strangers, no friends, no family around or else

they're totally alone and they don't know themselves in that situation.

And so the only thing that you can do is go inward.

And at the time I was journaling a lot and I was going inward a lot.

And so I just put the two thoughts together and jumped in.

that's beautiful.

Tina you mentioned that you've heard there's creative writing in some,

um, in some jail prison systems.

help us understand the difference between creative writing

those programs and journaling?

I'm not familiar with the programs.

I'm not familiar with prisons, but I can tell you the difference between

creative writing and journaling.

I've been a faculty member of the Jackson Hole Writers Conference for 20 some years,

and I'll be doing a workshop this coming.

Session, um, the end of June about memoir writing.

Creative writing is, even when it's memoir, even when it's biography, you

are opening up to your imagination.

the same thing really happens with journaling.

We're always using our imagination, but journaling is very creative

writing is just has a wider field.

journaling is about our inner lives.

So the inmates would want to talk about why they were jailed what wrong with

the police officer who arrested them, I always just direct them to the inner life

because that's what journaling's about.

That's what life is about.

It's where everything really happens.

Whether.

Um, you're in jail or whether you're not in jail.

It's the inner life that guides us all, I think so many of us are not

comfortable being there, but when you're in jail, have nowhere else to go.

so that's why I just felt like journaling was real.

tool to get someplace there.

You know, what kind of guidance for that inner world that just around their

heads with repeated stories misery and abuse and sadness and horror sometimes.

Mm.

Do you have some stories or a story?

which you would want to share with us, that, has moved you.

I could read you a page story from my book

Okay.

you like.

So Tina, before we do that, we're gonna do take a quick break to get

a word from one of our sponsors

Okay

then we'll get into you sharing one of those stories outta your book.

I

Hey Tina, tinaback, and as we discussed, journaling is very personal.

you mentioned, it's about sharing what's in our inner life, and you're gonna

share with us, a story of what moved you, one that moved you, um, your book.

So you take it from here.

Okay.

It happens to be the last chapter in the book, and it's just two pages long.

Aaron was in his mid twenties, built strongly with dark

hair, cut short and blue eyes.

That didn't seem to miss much.

was the second time he'd been incarcerated here for domestic battery.

Both times accused by the same woman.

first time Aaron was jailed for a week, released on a Friday, arrested

again the following Tuesday.

This second time he was put in maximum during Aaron's visit down to see me.

He was spewing anger.

His body shifted restlessly on the plastic chair.

written all over the walls of that stupid ass dinky cell and

ipace from one piece of shit.

I've penciled it eye level to the next one.

Hmm?

I said.

Sounds kind of like walking meditation, except the goal is to feel calm inside

instead of Aaron's body stilled.

What's walking?

Meditation.

I stood up on my side of the lockdown graded room and showed him

how to walk mindfully, slow steps.

Attention directed inwardly.

didn't come down for the following Tuesday night workshop.

When that happened, I tried not to judge myself about having failed to say the

right things when I had the chance.

then he came to see me the week after that.

I erased all the shitty crap I wrote on my walls.

He said, you did?

Yeah.

Now I've got four things written.

One on each wall.

like strong, be calm, and now I'm doing more, like you were saying.

What's that?

I asked.

I'm doing a walking meditation.

I walk from one saying to another, over and over.

nodded and smiled.

I'm feeling pretty good.

This is what I find wonderful about understanding.

There are really no opposites.

one place, for example, where cold becomes hot, but rather a continuum, one step,

one degree on the continuum for what does not work for us to what does That

was how Aaron moved from Fury to calm.

weeks later, when he was released from Max and able to join the

regular workshop, he was referring to himself as a man in need of help.

And he was taking steps to get it.

This is why I continued volunteering at the jail on Tuesday nights.

Who else got the witness?

This kind of uplifting event Every week Realization WA Wash Across Faces.

saw Insight Widen, eyes caught features softened when the men were

encouraged to offer self-compassion.

I did was merely nod toward a light switch.

The inmates themselves flipped it on.

Campbell said, your sacred space is where you can find yourself again and again.

made jail Aaron's sacred space and mine.

Tina, thank you for sharing.

Thank you for asking.

You recommended to Erin.

Mindful walking did I say that correctly?

Yes.

I'm hearing you're very aware of different practices for mindfulness.

are you introduced to, to that thought?

I think I've always been interested in, spiritual energy and, and just what might

not be terribly visible to all of us.

I lived in Cheyenne for five years and during that time I

just happened upon a teacher.

Her name was Jeanie, she lived in a cabin that she had built out of stone,

on the, top ridge of the, Of a canyon in Loveland, outside of Loveland, Colorado.

So an hour and a half drive every Wednesday to see her,

an hour and a half back.

And she just talked about, sort of universal spirituality.

And from there, um, once we moved here to Jackson, I found a lot of, a

lot from the, the wildness around us.

You know, I began to just hike all by myself.

I was really afraid, but I just made a point to go into all the canyons

and hike, and that did a lot for me.

And then I encountered, Buddhist teacher, which taught me how to meditate.

So just kind of went on and on.

I did, I've done lots of, meditation retreats.

I do a lot of reading.

It's, what I care about.

Can we talk about the Buddhist teacher?

Was that something here in town or you search that?

Oh, it was

Okay

Yes.

And you said the Buddhist teacher taught you what again?

Meditation.

Meditation.

Mm-hmm

What you learned from the Buddhist teacher.

tell me more about what you learned in that, in the meditation.

I'd say I learned to be comfortable with silence.

I am learning to be comfortable with not knowing.

We don't really know what's going on.

That was something that was a very big piece in my journaling workshops with the.

Inmates because they were always in this situation not knowing

when they could go to court, what would happen to them in court.

learned that, this is part of the Buddhist teachings that we do need

to be comfortable with not knowing because that is the reality.

So I think what Buddhism, and really the wisdom teachers, I'd rather widen

that field into wisdom teachers, taught me is to face reality.

The hard parts, the glorious parts, and work at being comfortable with both.

I think we can all use a lot of, those teachings and to

incorporate them in our lives.

Everything in today's world seems so and the feeling or the emotions of having

or receiving an immediate response to.

Actions or thoughts and what you just said about, being comfortable

with not knowing would allow us all to be okay with, some, some time.

Yes, I kind of trust in life capital L.

Yeah, think about how many people you make a post it.

It's become an addiction in some ways.

You make a post to some social media and you just need to keep watching your

post to see how many people respond to it or like it, or share it or love

it, or whatever platform you're using.

It's, it's changed.

it's the need that I need to take.

people taking selfies and, and sharing it with the west rest of the world or

where, what food you just ate or where you're going to get your shoes shined or

whatever, versus just being with yourself.

Yes, exactly.

I think that is just the outer world versus the inner world, you know?

Mm-hmm

um, the outer world holds a lot of stress.

It's a, it's a world of.

Doing, and I'm talking about a world of being.

And when I'm talking to the inmates that resonates because they can't do anything.

And it's very frustrating for them.

They feel like they're not earning money for their families.

not accomplishing anything at all.

They're just sitting there.

so they need to also be comfortable with the inner world, with the

being, with the not knowing.

It's not easy.

It's not an easy place for most of us, but it gets

Why, why do you say it's not easy?

because we need to address the pain in our lives.

If we don't, I believe in the things I'm reading, the research I'm doing tells me

it goes into our bodies or we are putting it out there into our relationships.

If we're not taking responsibility our own pain, we're making others deal with it.

We're being angry people.

We're.

. I mean, happy people want to, to make other people happy.

Happy people are kind people, and if you're not a happy person, you're

trying to make others feel way you feel.

Kind of miserable inside.

Self-doubting, uncertain.

You know, all those.

Getting other people to feel the pain that you're feeling.

That has, a, a big message there versus addressing the pain

that we're feeling ourselves.

Yes, that's true.

The component that I think a lot of people are missing is giving

ourselves a kind of kindness love.

When we are dealing with these painful things, we have to feel this pain.

We have to bring it up.

We have to recognize where it's hitting us and our body.

What it's stirring in our thoughts and our feelings.

And then we need to give ourselves kindness and love,

then we need to let it go.

And we need to do this same thing with the same issue over and over and over.

what happens is that that pain loses its charge,

Mm

we can deal with it in a more constructive way.

, we can understand it.

We can give ourselves understanding, and that's not the same thing

as giving ourselves excuses.

just saying, yes, was a hard time in my life and I was in

confusion and I reacted this way.

I can do better next time.

I have that ability, I have that strength to remember who we really are in there.

and it's hard, especially hard for the inmates when from the time

they were little children looking up to their parents or their

caretakers is the gods in their life.

were typically, and this was typical over the thousands that I met, finding

abuse, finding indifference, finding that that parent or caretaker was under

the influence of something or other that kept them from being present.

. And so the inmates that as a way to deal with their pain, drink too much, take

drugs, and it was a way of numbing out to life because it was a survival tactic.

It was the only thing they could do to stay alive.

Is what you're talking about addressing the pain, acknowledging

it versus ignoring it.

Is that a way to end that cycle of abuse, of neglect, of the issues that

might lead into somebody that you, because of all the people who you met,

were incarcerated to end that cycle.

I think.

So what I am reading supports that idea.

I keep encountering it.

Um, various, um, wisdom teachers, psychology.

think it's a good path.

It's working for me.

Mm-hmm.

In addition to reading your books that you've produced, that you've created

and are sh sharing, are there a few books that you would want to recommend

to someone to read that helps with this, of how to address this pain that

we all have and to acknowledge it?

So it doesn't become something buried, and it allows us to be good

citizens in life and help others

and share that happiness.

Well, yes, I feel like.

. I feel a certain reluctance in suggesting, spiritual books because

I feel like I would rather somebody just go into a bookstore and we've

got two beautiful ones here in

Mm-hmm

and just hiccup books.

Read the first paragraph or so, open it up in the middle, see

if it just resonates with you.

See if that voice, that way of addressing, um, life.

, feels meaningful.

Um, otherwise, You know, for me, I read Eckhart, read Pam Schroen.

I read so many different, different books.

I have stacks of them all around, and I don't even start

on page one and go through.

I'll start on page one and then I'll go to another book and see what

they might say about that subject.

But, um, as far as just dealing with our pain and how it, it.

We go into denial and how it affects our body.

I really admire Gabo mate's work.

He has, uh, books about addiction.

He has a book about a d d, he has a book about, His, that's his, uh, newest one.

He has about a book about, How the body says no, which is his, manuscript

about denying things in our life and pushing them down into our bodies

and our bodies, then express them.

so yeah, there's, there's a lot of wonderful books out there and I

think Abord be great to start with.

I think Eckhart totally.

It'd be great to start with.

I've, I've read Eckhart Toley, one of his books.

this is new for me to hear.

Gabo Matte.

Yes.

Could you spell Matt mate for me?

M A T e Mark on the E

M a

t

T E.

e with accent.

Beautiful

Thank you Tina.

I love sharing quotes and from books that I read and sharing, I created a

library here and share it with pe my friends and people that I work with.

And I think sharing books is, A beautiful way to help spread kindness in the world,

I agree.

and I appreciate you sharing some authors.

I also appreciate you sharing your experience and putting it in the format

of a book so we can all learn from your experience Learn from the brave people

who allowed themselves to be vulnerable and share their journal writings with you

and how you help them

That's the key.

Being vulnerable.

Hmm

Yeah.

As soon as we're vulnerable, we're kind of shunting aside our ego, which likes

to be in charge, which likes to post so often as you were referring to, you know?

But if we, work on that sense of willingness to be vulnerable in the

world and with each other, that's a big, big leap in, in a single word.

Well said Tina, I think that's a wonderful way to

end the conversation today.

And where can people find your book?

Tuesday in jail.

Tuesdays in jail.

Tuesday's in jail is at Valley Bookstore, right downtown across

the street from Persephone, and it's at the book Trader out on the

highway, and also in their, in Wilson.

Okay.

And when will people begin to see the medallion?

And you said that was the, what, what award again?

Was it

the Nautilus book Award, and

Nautilus

my shiny, um, circles to the stores today to slap on my book.

Proudly.

Yes.

Yes,

Proudly.

And Tina, if people wanted to connect with you, what is a great way for people

to reach out and connect with you?

Well, I think, check into the Jackson Hole Writer's conferences.

One way

Mm-hmm

open to, um, emails.

I'm Tina Welling, author@gmail.com and I always respond.

That's terrific.

Well, is there still availability for people to join your, um, your

class that you will be leading, at the writer's conference this year?

Yes, there is.

There are openings.

The Writer's Conference is something I have been involved

in for 20 some years, just.

Probably a couple years after they started.

First as a writer and just a volunteer, and then eventually got published and now

I get to be on the faculty and I teach.

So I'll be teaching a memoir workshop, which will involve

mostly just writing a lot of the questions that I use for the, inmates

workshops that will get us started.

It'll just be a couple hours on Friday night to on of June 23rd

to just write and write and write.

and I did get to interview Tim Sandlin, who I believe is involved,

or he was one of the

founders.

Yeah And it was a joy to be able to speak with him, and it's been an absolute joy

to, to have this time with you, Tina.

I appreciate it.

Thank you s Stephan.

I enjoyed it thoroughly myself.

You're welcome.

Well, have a great day, Tina, and have a successful and happy, writer's

conference and keep on making a difference in people's lives.

Thank you, Ste.

You're welcome.

To learn more about Tina Welling and her book Tuesdays in Jail, visit the jackson

hole connection.com, episode number 246.

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