Episode 243 – Choosing Your Defense Strategy with Tony Molina

You are tuned into the Jackson hole, connection, sharing, fascinating stories

of people connected to Jackson Hole.

I am truly grateful for each of you for tuning in today and support

for this podcast comes from:

I'll begin today's episode with a little quote from Tick, not hod.

Because of your smile, you make life more beautiful and

welcome to episode number 243.

My guest today is Tony Molina, an author, outdoorsman, and a guy who knows the

importance of being thorough with research and being prepared in the outdoors.

Tony's book, handgun Selection for Grizzly Bear Defense provides information

for people to make a decision about what is their best defense when they're

traveling around in bear country.

And guess what?

We live in bear country.

I really did learn a ton about caring handguns while in the back country.

And some perspectives of why having a handgun over bear spray

or even having both are important.

for you to decide of what you feel is best for you.

Tony presents his well-researched information in a method, which I

follow and appreciate now is extremely engaged with the conversation that

Tony was sharing with us today.

Tony, welcome to the Jackson Hole Connection.

I'm so honored and delighted

that you have some Time to share with me and all the listeners out there.

in the podcasting world.

so thank you.

Nice to see you today.

Likewise.

Thanks for having me on

welcome.

welcome.

So Tony, I began every

episode with people

sharing

How they

landed here in Jackson.

So where were you born?

Where

did you get to be dirty when you were growing up as a kid, if

you chose to be dirty as a kid.

I did.

and then how did you land

here in Jackson?

yeah, definitely.

So I grew up in Northern California in a place called Niece in Clear Lake,

uh, really small town, very rural area.

then my parents kind of split up.

I ended up spending time between there and like the San Francisco Bay area.

. after I got outta school, decided to try and find my fit and I've always,

I've got my first 22 rifle when I was five, so shooting has always been

a really important part of my life.

and as the years progressed, it got tougher and tougher to continue

that passion in California with laws and restrictions and things like

that, and just general social views.

so I kind of did some game testing down in, uh, Southern

California working at EA games.

. I did train in some hunting dogs and do kind of ranch work and mechanicing up

in Northern California by Mount Shasta.

eventually I started to realize like instead of continuing selling

things and getting rid of gun parts, that would make me a felon.

Next year when the next law passed, I'd move somewhere where

uh, I would be welcomed and accepted for what I like to do.

And I had three states.

It was Montana, Alaska, and Wyoming.

and everybody, you know, looked at me like I was crazy.

A lot of my friends are, you know, from, San Francisco area specifically.

They're like, what the heck?

Like, nobody lives out in those places.

What the heck would you do there?

And, um, you know, yeah, perfect for me, . So I said, yeah, totally.

I was talking to one of my friends and I said, Hey, I'm moving out to Wyoming.

And he said, Hey, let's, I'll go with you.

Let's work at Jackson Hole Mountain Resort.

And I was like, Okay, whatever.

Like it'll be my connection.

I'll go out there, I'll meet some people, I'll kind of network, see what I can find.

So I did, I moved out, uh, was working there for my first winter,

then ended up meeting a skier that was driving, coming down the path he

was looking for, you know, a ride.

And, uh, he was talking about how he needed someone to work on a ranch.

So I worked on a ranch down in Big Piney.

for the next summer there.

Then came back to Jackson, worked the next winter.

And as I was trying to figure out, you know, the shooting sports and

how to kind of get involved and stuff like that, I had been a local

member at the Jacksonville Gun Club.

top 100, which was trying to find like the top 100 shooters in Wyoming.

there I met one of the coaches for the Jackson Hole shooting experience.

And, As we were talking, I was like, Hey, what do you do?

You know, this and that, trying to make some connections.

And he mentioned that he, part-time worked for the Jackson Hole shooting experience

and I thought, man, if they could use a guy like him, they would love a guy like

me, . So, um, so I called up and, you know, hit it off and then really just

hit it off, especially with Tim Brutin, who took me under his wing and kind of

taught me all the ropes of everything.

So, Yeah, I've been instructing with them for the past, almost six years now.

And, um, just love it.

It's the best job I could ever have had.

and I'm really, really grateful to Shepherd Humphreys and Lyncher.

They're the owners of the company,

Mm-hmm.

.Cool.

So I, I want to.

Rewind just a little bit.

I, I like detail.

So what year was that, that you moved out here to work with your friend at J H M R

2015.

Yep.

Okay.

And what was the ranch that you worked?

You said Pinedale?

Uh, yeah, so Pinedale and then Big Piney is south of that.

So if you go past Daniel.

so yeah, it was kind of between Daniel and Big Piney.

It was, uh, previously Cottonwood Ranch.

Um, nowadays I think it, the ranch has been sold, um, but

it was a really cool ranch.

It was, you know, roughly around 85,000 acres, uh, 23 miles long.

Really, really fun.

And I got to experience all 230 miles

of fence line.

Oh, I bet you did.

And

so

over time, you

started working for

Jackson Hole shooting experience, but I want to find out you went to that

competition.

Did you, were you a competitor?

Were you com participating?

Yes, I was participating.

so my car at the time, I had a repair needed, so I was living basically by side

winders in town for those who know, is about six miles from the shooting range.

So the competition was rifle and pistol and like a semi-automatic rifle and a

semi-automatic pistol, which is kind of the most common two gun setup.

So I was trying to figure out how to get there in time and.

with my guns and stuff cuz I didn't have my car . I decided to fold up

my AK 47, put it in my backpack, and set up my pistol and my holster and

everything, throw it in my backpack, bunch of ammo, first aid stuff, and

just bicycled on down to the range

And how did you do in the competition?

know, I did really well.

I actually got to, I didn't, uh, make it into the top 100 because my attention, I'm

sure I would've . Um, my attention quickly turned to the governor's match, which, uh,

at the time there was a firearms policy advisor for the governor, uh, Nephi,

who kind of recruited me and is like, Hey, I'm trying to get people for this.

You look like you can really handle your stuff.

Um, would you like to come out to Cheyenne and do this competition?

and I was like, uh, yeah.

So that was in August.

and just blew my socks off.

I got to meet so many cool people.

Um, I performed great in there.

my setup was probably a little bit not prime for the gaming aspects of

it, but gosh did I have so much fun.

It was really, really neat.

So, that was a valuable part

of my experience.

And in your industry, did that open up some doors for you?

you know, I met a lot of people, a few of them that I still talk to,

but, um, I wouldn't say that it opened any new doors that I pursued.

And one of the reasons is because I was just so enamored and fascinated with

the Jackson Hole shooting experience.

I mean, they have.

Their business just set in such a good way to really capture, you know,

experienced shooters, new shooters, and just help 'em get to new levels,

experience new things, all kinds of stuff.

So I'm really bummed I'm actually gonna be moving this year.

I'm gonna be

leaving the company, uh, just for relocation.

yeah.

You know how the housing market goes here, so, yeah, but I mean, it's just, I kind

of didn't really look for any new doors, uh, or pursue 'em because I had such a

good fit with the shooting experience.

Mm-hmm.

, where do you mind, or do you know where you're moving to?

Me and my wife were actually, um, getting a house in Eagle, Wisconsin.

Eagle,

Wisconsin.

Okay.

And you'll be able to still participate in your activities and your passion

of, of guns and shooting there?

Yep.

Yeah, I wanna, I really want to continue, you know, contributing to

the firearms community and pursuing my passion of shooting sports and teaching.

so I, that was one of the criteria.

We had a long spreadsheet of acceptable states we could move to for both

of our, you know, needs and wants.

And, uh, yeah, Wisconsin definitely fit the bill for both

of us.

Sorry to see you leave and have us lose somebody such as

yourself and our community.

now just so the listeners know, I have had shepherd Humphrey with the Jackson

Hole shooting experience on the podcast.

I've known Shep for a whole bunch of years through different organizations

here in the community, and he's, he's a.

Really remarkable guy and fascinating.

He's written several books and you have written a book,

and that's really why we're

talking today is because you have

written this book.

And, why don't you give me the title of the book that you have recently written?

So you're now,

uh, a firearms coach, but an author.

Correct.

The book is titled at Handgun Selection for Grizzly Bear Defense.

Uh, which is kind of a mouthful, but I wanted it to be catchy, and this

would be applicable to any large mammal defense, whether you were getting

attacked by a mountain lion or a moose or something, which oftentimes,

you know, people find themselves in these weird, unthinkable positions

to start off, have you ever

had a grizzly bear interaction?

interaction, yes, but not any like violent or aggressive,

conflicts or anything like that.

Okay.

what was your interaction with the

grizzly beer?

Um, I'm an elk hunter out here and an archery hunter as well.

So you get in really close quarters, in dense woods, where there might

not be the ability to signal your presence to bears, um, before

you're in their personal bubble.

. Mm-hmm.

So, I mean, yeah, anything from, you know, if I'm archery hunting

with my friend, I would be calling, they would be arch uh, like the head

position ahead of me or vice versa.

And uh, when you're out there doing that calling like an elk, you

sound like a grizzly bear's meal.

So they will come in and inspect that and sometimes, you know, you

can hear them coming towards you and think like, oh man, there's an elk.

I better get ready.

And then you see this big patch of brown for it come up and you go, oh my gosh.

Nope, that's not an

elk

that's not enough.

That's a bear.

No, and you know, fortunately, you know, all bears are very different.

Just like all people are very different.

Um, they have different temperaments and personalities.

So as long as you and I largely attribute my not having any aggressive

encounters, uh, specifically to my, like bear awareness and knowhow, Um,

as long as you are capable of, you know, signaling and utilizing body

language and other things, to kind of signify, Hey, I'm not your normal food

source and I'm also not, uh, anything that you wanna chase down for prey.

bears tend to be pretty intelligent creatures, so, um, luckily been banking

on that.

Well, I am happy to hear that you have

not had a, a bad interaction with a bear at this point, and with all your hunting.

Have you come across mountain lions because, Sometimes you don't

know a mountain lion's around, but they know you are around.

Most of the time you don't know they're around and they know you're around.

Um, so I haven't actually, um, seen any in close proximity.

like out in Wyoming, however, uh, I've definitely seen

fresh tracks and fresh sign.

I've been like, oh man, like all I know this could be, you know, an hour old.

And they were.

We didn't intersect our paths or they've been hanging out and kind

of looking at me and scoping me out.

so yeah, it's just one of those things where, you know, it helps to keep

your head on the swivel, be very aware of your surroundings, and I think

that's just a, an inherent part of going out into, you know, the wild.

Very true and Tony, thank you

for,

stating that.

cuz whether somebody is out hunting

or

if they're out riding their mountain bike or on a hike,

a walk,

whatever the case may be,

is important.

To keep your head on the swivel.

And

nowadays, when I've been

out hiking, I

now hear people playing their music on their phone or these portable speakers,

and I don't know if that's a detractor for

the animals, but for

me, I don't think people can really

hear their surroundings and really know what is going on around them.

And I think that is a, a negative to, to people walking

around with their music playing.

Yeah, I think there's a, a cost benefit analysis there.

You know, some folks might think like, Hey, if I'm playing this music kinda

like bare bells, it'll alert things to my presence as I'm going through.

the other thing is it does cloud your sensory, intake.

You know, so you might not hear or see a bear or a moose or something like that

and be able to react and give yourself adequate distance to avoid a conflict.

Right.

Now let's get back to

the book.

that you wrote.

I'm really curious to know

how did you do

the research?

Yeah.

So, um, growing up my dad always had a, uh, kind of a bear defense handgun cuz

he was a big hunter and things like that.

He'd go to Idaho and all these different places.

he always had a single action, 44 Magnum Ruger, super Blackhawk.

And that was like growing up.

I knew that was the gun that could take down a bear, you know, as a child I

didn't know a whole lot about that sort of thing except for what I was told.

Um, so he did give me that gun at a point.

and when I was out here, that was my first kind of go-to defensive line.

I had my bear spray, and then I had that, um, handgun.

And, uh, as I kind of worked through some drills and things, as I learned

more from the shooting, uh, instructor side of things, um, and how to properly

prepare for, you know, an engagement or something like that, or some

defensive encounter, I realized that There was a want still, like I wanted

to be able to perform better, faster.

so I opted for trying out another gun that I had, which was a revolver.

similar but it was a double action so you could pull the trigger and it

would shoot each time versus caulking the hammer and shooting each time

where you had to cock the hammer.

Um, and then that led me into looking at, you know, adequate calibers and

semi-automatics and all this stuff.

And a lot of this might not make sense to some listeners , cuz

there's a lot of information.

So I ended up doing this just massive download where I would look at everything

I could find online, everything I could find in literature, books like,

uh, bear attacks, their Causes and Avoidance by Steven Herrero, government.

You know, bear spray things and stuff like that.

Um, and then looking at what government entities who often encounter or

have to encounter aggressive bears utilize, you know, things like shotguns

with flus and high powered rifles.

Um, and that kind of just led me down this huge rabbit hole where I was

researching everything I could find, anecdotal evidence, um, seeing what

worked, what didn't work, what gave people an edge for survivability.

Um, and that was where I ended up going to my final destination.

Where now, you know, I have a, a 10 millimeter.

Glock 20 handgun, which may makes sense for some listeners, but that loaded with

an appropriate, ammunition, which would be like a hard cast, flat nose projectile.

that is what you need.

You need a combination of like speed, momentum, penetration, um, in order to

achieve, you know, stopping an animal like a bear or moose or something like that.

I'm not a person that

is extremely knowledgeable about guns.

I grew up, my dad always had guns.

He collected 'em.

He'd take my brother and I out to the shooting range and we'd

shoot guns and we grew up with BB guns and pump B gun, BB guns.

I remember as a kid, I blew out the back window of one of my friends cars, and I

got, he got in a lot of trouble for that.

I believe that.

but you're talking about 44 Magnum.

I think my dad had a 44 Magnum revolver.

I remember seeing that thing.

It was like, Clint

East Woods, you know, dirty Hairies

44 Magnum.

Right.

That is the model 29.

Yep.

Okay.

So that's a

big gun

compared to the Glock.

So I'm guessing that what your dad had was a pretty big gun compared

to what your research has found.

You don't need as a large of a gun, but you need the right am ammunition for it.

Yeah, that's been the general consensus.

there's a lot of factors that go into it, which is why I wrote the book on it

so that people can kind of grab all this stuff and digest it at their own pace.

Um, but there's not a one size fits all answer for everyone, but the

commonalities between it, whether you're gonna have a 44 magnum or a 10

millimeter, even, you know, some people would take like a 38 special or a nine

millimeter out there, which would have previously been seen as like, No way.

That's way too small for a grizzly bear.

but with, you know, proper ammunition and things like that, um, they are capable.

So it's a matter of finding what you can use and then looking at the common, uh,

elements that cause everything to succeed.

And I think one of the things that people get hung up on is getting the

most powerful handgun they can find.

you know, if you can't shoot it accurately or quickly, then it kind of doesn't

really set you up for success, like a smaller, more manageable handgun might.

Now

why don't you speak to that a little bit and before, after you

speak to that, I also want to get into

the difference,

in the ammunition, but speak to

just because somebody has a

powerful gun,

it doesn't mean that they can un holster it quickly enough and accurately

shoot it at what they're aiming at.

Yeah.

Um, kind of like buying a guitar does not make you a guitarist, , or a musician.

buying a gun doesn't make you an excellent marksman or prepared for,

you know, a defensive encounter.

There's a lot of training that goes into developing the skills that might

give you an edge and some type of encounter where you'd need to deploy

like a handgun or something like that.

So, I guess.

To talk about, you know, getting huge weighty guns.

A lot of people will find some inconveniences there,

especially if you look at the lightweight backpacking community.

they're trying to shape ounces wherever they can.

So they'll often, you know, think, oh, I'll get this big 44 Magnum at first,

cuz that's what everyone recommends.

Like, get a, you know, the highest caliber you can.

That's the only thing that's gonna stop a grizzly bear.

Um, and they get this huge weighty gun and it's.

, it becomes more of an annoyance.

It's always in the way.

It's kind of heavy.

And then they decide, you know what?

I'm just gonna take my bear spray this time.

Like I don't need to take my gun cuz I'm just going to this part

where I don't see bears usually.

Murphy's Law would dictate that that is probably the time you're gonna see a bear.

So you know, if you're gonna buy a defensive means and want to

keep it accessible, which Steve Nelson up in Alaska, he teaches

a lot of the government services and just normal people in general.

For bear defense stuff, his kind of motto, one of the things he'll say in his courses

is if it's not deployable within three seconds, you may as well not even have it.

So that's your bear spray in the bottom of your backpack, that's your handgun

in the bottom of your backpack or a shotgun that's over by the truck and

you're at camp or something like that.

that's why handguns, which are sort of a compromise in terms of energy and.

Power that you might think to stop a bear.

the reason that people opt for them so frequently is because they're convenient

to keep accessible and deployable within that kind of three second timeframe.

Um, which you talked about holsters and kind of being able

to get it out quickly and stuff.

Um, proper holsters and different holster options are made for all

the different activities that you do in the wild, whether you're a fly

fisherman waiting into the river.

or you know, you're on horseback riding through the mountains on trails, um, or

you're an archery hunter trying to get close to animals and things like that.

So, yeah, there's a lot of different options and it takes some research to get

yourself acquainted with what option might fit you best and give you that extra edge

or chance, you know, to defend yourself.

So, again, one of the things that I really wanted to hit on in the

book was those different holster options because it's gotten so widely

accessible now in terms of options, whereas, Five, 10 years ago, the amount

of options was extremely limited.

holsters weren't popular.

Uh, they didn't make adequate, like mid leg or drop leg holsters.

were all these clunky, goofy, tactical things that you would see on like

SWAT teams and stuff, but they weren't really practical for people who were

out in, you know, rugged terrain, utilizing their body in extensive times.

Sounds like you have done the

research.

So if people are outdoor enthusiasts and they choose to carry a handgun

with them for, security protection, reasons that your book would help

them navigate a lot of that research, probably save a lot of time for them.

Yeah, that was, that was, uh, the main goal was after I got to my conclusion

and figured out, what I was gonna trust to give me an edge, I realized,

wow, if anyone else wants this answer or to get to the same answer

in their own way, um, they're gonna have to go through all this research.

So what I did, I wanted to just write a foundational informational.

Book that could shorten the learning gap and then increase the learning

curve, like the accelerated learning curve, so that they could spend their

valuable time and energy and get more payback out of it or payout.

Mm-hmm.

now what about the bear spray?

it's great.

I mean, I carry it all the time.

will often say like, oh, you know, bear spray's more effective than guns, which

is not scientific or backed up by studies.

Even the gentleman who wrote the studies, uh, with Steven Herrero,

which was Tom Smith, he kind of two studies and I'm gonna actually

just open something up here.

Yeah.

one is the efficacy of Bair.

Deterrent spray in Alaska.

And then the other was efficacy of firearms for bear deterrents in Alaska.

And these have wildly different criteria and very, very different circumstances.

One of the main ones that I'll point to is that, the majority of data on

bear spray research is done with bears that are not actively aggressive.

So not charging, not causing, you know, Injury or things like that, not causing

a threat to life and stuff like that.

These are bears that are curious, garbage feeding, moving

around and stuff like that.

And it's wildly effective for those types of scenarios.

You know, it's kind of like getting sprayed in the face by a skunk.

It's an evolutionary thing, they are kind of hardwired to know, like, oh,

I don't mess with things that spray me with these weird, you know, toxins

or chemicals or things like that.

and then when you look at the efficacy of firearms for fair defense in

Alaska, um, that study was largely done on, instances where there was

some threat to life or property.

And those are very different circumstances.

So, even the author, Smith.

He said that some people do compare these two studies, but there was never

a thought on the authors of comparing them cuz they're wildly different.

So, when people say bear spray is 98% effective, there's a big asterisk next

to that on, you know, how effective is it in aggressive bear encounters.

Um, and then another thing to that is there's, it's not a foolproof system.

Just like firearms aren't a foolproof system.

You know, bear spray is really susceptible to, high winds, um, freezing

temperatures and things like that, uh, foliage or other obstructions that, you

know, a bullet might penetrate through, but bear spray might get hung up on.

and bears move extremely fast when they charge.

So the ability to, Puff out this smoke or this cone of, uh, bear spray.

there have been many bear in attacks where the bears have run through it

without really getting it into the mucus membranes and things like that,

where it needs to get to be effective.

Mm.

Okay.

I like what you just said

said

that

that.

both can be, and, and I'm, I'm, I might misstate this, but essentially

you said they're both, the handgun and the bear spray are both useful

deterrents, neither is, and correct me on this neither's a guarantee.

Yeah, that

is absolutely correct.

And I think that's important for people to understand whether somebody

does have bear spray or a handgun.

When you are facing down a bear that's gonna charge you, neither is a guarantee.

A hundred percent correct.

I can't stress that enough with, you know, with proper training, proper

equipment, and proper practices.

You know, you can increase your odds in being able to react and

hopefully, you know, deter or.

and an attack or something like that, but there's never any guarantees, um, in life.

and that's just one of those things, you know, when you go out

in the wild, like we talked about, you're taking on an inherent risk.

You live in a dangerous world and I mean, you're just as likely driving to

Smith's to get hit in a car and have a car accident, which is statistically high.

like, you know, you might fall off of a cliff in Grand Teton National Park,

or, you know, get attacked by bear.

Hmm.

I want to go back to the bullets.

but also

I'm very curious to learn of with somebody having a handgun where

they should shoot the bear, because that's gotta be important as

well.

And before we get into that, we're gonna take

a quick break to get a word from one of our sponsors, and then

we're gonna come back, Tony, and have you answer those questions.

Tony, welcome

back.

I have

a very

curious mind, so I'm

really enjoying this conversation, so I appreciate you doing all the

research to write your book, handgun Selection for Grizzly Beer Defense.

Let's start off

with

with

if somebody has a

handgun,

Where would you want to shoot the bear?

Where should the contact point be?

great question.

So, um, really if you're trying to immediately stop a dangerous bear attack,

which is the only time that you should be, you know, shooting at a bear, um, unless

you're hunting or something like that, in a place where it's legal to do so,

that it's important for people to understand

that.

Yeah, definitely.

Um, yeah, cuz so many people, of get this built up illusion in their head

of like, oh my gosh, if I see a bear, you know, like, that's the end of it.

I gotta, you know, shoot this thing.

It's like, no, they're, they're out there living their life doing their thing,

you know, and you're in their space just as much as they might be in your space.

So, yeah, I wouldn't ever recommend like, initiating

violence on something like that.

however, if you wanna, you know, respond to some type of violence

in an effective way and immediately stop, The chance of you getting hurt.

Um, you're really looking at hitting and disabling kind of two main areas.

One would be, brainstem and the associated kind of control center of that organism.

So, uh, looking for, the base of the brain, or even just the brain in general.

And then the sp uh, the spinal cord.

So the central nervous system where all those bundles of nerves run through

and kind of coordinate the rest of the, you know, muscular abilities.

Mm-hmm.

now if they're.

usually, you know, if a bear is charging directly at you, I would

actually recommend, like the nose is a pretty good place to aim and that's

gonna afford you a couple advantages.

One is that, um, if you are standing and a bear is charging, you're probably

gonna be a little taller them than them.

So as they come closer to you, your perspective angle, um, the closer they

get, the lower you're gonna have to aim in relation to the speed they're running at.

Um, so that you can track their nose as it comes towards you.

So let's say you shoot and you are lagging behind their movement

cuz they're extremely fast.

Um, if you shoot toward the nose and you miss in a vertical line behind

them in their trailing, uh, you still have a good chance to hit the

skull, the spine, like that that can.

You know, really disable and incapacitate so that you can get away safely.

reason, the nose is such a good place to aim.

Like let's say you took a knee and you were on the same level and they were

charging at you, aiming at the nose, inside of their kind of nasal cavity.

Um, there's a lot of cartilage and soft tissue and there's

not much bone in the way.

There's like this big funnel that goes straight back toward their brain.

so that's a good place to aim because you're dealing with not a lot of

obstructions in the way, in terms of thick bones and stuff like that,

and you're getting a straight line path toward the central nervous

system, the brainstem, things like that, you wanna be, uh, looking.

To hit and disable.

Um, the other thing that is, uh, good to know is weight-bearing bones.

So if you hit a shoulder or, uh, you know, a big arm mo bone or something

like that, or the back of the spine or something, you can definitely disable or

mame their ability, uh, to move and get toward you, which might afford you more

time to get away or lay more shots on target or, you know, do something else

that can help you react and stay safe.

Um, the one thing you're not really aiming for, Is, lungs and their heart like you

would typically if you were hunting.

those are like the vitals that we're always looking to get an ethical shot on.

this is very different from a hunting scenario, though it's more of a defensive

scenario where in hunting you might shoot the lungs of the heart and the

animal will not know what happened.

Uh, move for a little bit, think it got old really fast and die.

and that usually can take anywhere from 20 seconds to much longer depending

on, how that tissue is damaged.

So, 20 seconds is a long time if you do get an a hit or a

shot, but you still get maimed.

You know, like you may for all, you know, end the bear's life, but not after.

You may have already lost your own ability to defend yourself or lost your own life.

and probably important for people to understand

If you are in an area

area

where a bear

comes at you aggressively

and you shoot it, it would be investigated

by.

the area

game and fish department.

Absolutely.

Um, I've heard some ex law enforcement from California who say that the game and

fish out here takes, you know, grizzly bear and like animal, um, interactions,

lethal interactions like that more seriously than a lot of the homicides

that they investigated in cities.

So, um, yeah, you can definitely believe that.

Um, there's gonna be a lot of investigation going into it and,

you know, that's where it's.

All the, all the more so important that, you know, you take ownership and

accountability for any actions you do.

Like if you're gonna carry any form of, uh, defensive means

like that, that there's a responsibility that goes with that.

And I think it's important people kind of understand and appreciate

that aspect.

Thank you for, for mentioning the responsibility side of it

because this is not a carlan.

Much opportunity shoot at a bear or, I mean, ultimately it's licensing,

know, for, for hunting purposes.

But if you're, what is the regulation

if

that somebody would need to prove that they were threatened?

you know, it's really tough.

Most of the ways that, uh, laws dense self-defense laws are

written throughout the country in different states, um, are tough.

You usually gotta be a lawyer to understand them.

but my general non-lawyer opinion, and the way that I've kind of figured this

out after talking to like a previous, uh, fish and Game commissioner, and

previous, uh, prosecutor, um, is that, If a bear is charging at you,

whether it's a bluff charge or, a real charge is not necessarily gonna

stop your self-defense going through.

You know, it's really hard in the critical couple seconds that you

have that you, the average person, let alone an expert is really able

to tell, that is a bluff or not.

And there's definitely experts who've worked with hundreds of bears

and not shot them knowing it was a bluff charge and things like that.

But I'd say the average hiker or hunter or something like that, may

not have the experienced eye of a hundred or more bear encounters.

. so yeah, if they're charging at you close proximity and kind of making aggressive

notions, uh, so chomping, smacking their, uh, jaws and things like that,

um, that doesn't necessarily give you the Okay, but that's one of the things that

you could include is you are defending your story, um, is like, Hey, I saw

this aggressive exhibited behavior.

I saw this or whatever.

I felt like this, this is what happened.

Basically, what it boils down to is, can you explain this so that.

, anybody who was put in that same position could say, you know what, that

is totally reasonable to have utilized self-defense because of the circumstances.

and it's, it's a super complicated question.

It really is tough.

And whatever choices you make, you know, those are the

choices we have to live with.

Whether you're a high risk ski line going down a, you know, and you're looking at

these things like there's no guaranteed line of safety . Um, but you're making

the best decisions you can and hoping, you know, based off of what you see,

that you're making the right decisions.

So true.

It's all about that moment in time and using all the information you can process.

And is this a good decision or not?

Yeah, and I mean, that's just the reality we live in and it's one of

the things that makes it wonderful.

Yeah.

I think what is important

about making decisions is whatever decision a person

makes, you need to own it.

Yeah, I think accountability is, uh, a huge, hugely valuable,

characteristic and quality that we should strive more as for, as a society.

But more and more these days, it kind of seems like that's the opposite.

So I'm a big fan of accountability and like really just own it.

better to learn from your mistakes and learn from the processes you do so that

you can be a

better person in the end.

That's right.

And, and I teach my kids that all

the time and it's,

and, and it's not as though they learn it right away,

but

hey,

you made a mistake You didn't make the right

to choice something happened, but at least own it.

Admit it.

I'm more proud of you by you telling the truth.

And owning, what you did than you feeling as though, it was bad,

um, and you shouldn't own it.

And not all I said, sometimes you might be in trouble, but sometimes you might not.

Just telling the truth

alone, knowing that you did something that you were not

supposed to do is good enough.

Yeah.

And, uh, those little things compound.

You know, there's these decisions where you might not own something,

and then later on in life, you know, you kind of gave yourself a green

light of that behavior being okay.

You got away with it and.

It doesn't, you know, like injuries, they don't really affect you when

you're younger, but then you really start to feel 'em when you're older.

This is kind of a mental injury where you've given yourself this, okay.

And then you have this kind of sulking little feeling about it.

Um, so I think it's important.

It's hard to do, but it really does help you develop into a stronger person.

For sure.

Now, let's go back to the bullets, the, the ammunition.

Yeah,

Again,

I'm, I don't know a lot about,

I if you told me talking about one bullet versus another.

I, I, don't know what that means.

So I'm curious to know in a descriptor.

What would it look like and how is it different of what you have?

Like what's in your Glock of why that would be an effective, form

of ammunition versus just if I went over to the sporting goods store and

bought, you know, some standard rounds.

Yeah, definitely.

Um, so you can bracelet basically break it down into a couple things.

There's training ammunition, which is usually a full metal jacket, so it's

like a copper jacket on the outside.

Copper's a relatively hard metal, and then inside is a bunch of soft lead.

relatively inexpensive to make and it's great for punching holes and paper

or hitting steel targets as you're training and practicing with a firearm.

Then there is hollow point or soft point ammunition.

These are kind of designed, uh, soft point for hunting.

So as if you imagine like throwing a tomato at something versus a golf ball.

, if you throw a tomato at it, it's a lot softer.

So it's gonna hit and splat and deliver the, the force of the

impact into whatever it hits.

versus if you threw a golf ball at, you know, a pillow or something, um,

it's gonna hit a specific spot and have more energy focused in that place.

When you talk about bullets though, the difference is the soft point

is going to hit something and distribute kinetic energy to.

That point via like spread and impact.

whereas a full metal jacket or some other type of penetrating bullet might hit.

But instead of delivering a large blow in energy, it's gonna actually maintain

its energy, not transfer it to the target or whatever it hits, and possibly

continue through the medium that it's traveling through and go through the

other side or something like that.

Hollowpoint ammunition works very similar to.

Hunting ammunition, um, where instead of a soft point, there's a cavity on the

inside of the front of the projectile.

So that cavity catches whatever it in contact with.

Much like a parachute catches air, it's gonna open up and then deliver.

As that, uh, projectile gets larger, it's gonna catch more mass and

deliver a bigger thud or a more impact and not penetrate nearly as far.

So the reason you don't want any of the aforementioned for bear defense, is that

typically, uh, if you're, especially if you're doing like handguns, uh, for

defensive purposes, you want something that's gonna penetrate as far as

possible because bears, moose, large bodied mammals like that, there're much.

Thicker in terms of the amount of mass they have on them.

Their bones are thicker, their height is thicker, their tissues are much denser.

it's really like a density and thickness deal where you have to get through a lot

more to reach those, valuable parts of their body that work to coordinate 'em.

So central nervous system, brain, things like that, that might incapacitate them.

what you would want for.

handguns would be like a hard cast alloy.

So it's a, it's a lead alloy that's much harder than normal soft lead.

and then if you didn't have something like that, the other option would

typically be, uh, like a solid copper projectile or a solid brass projectile.

And there's some weird goofy laws from.

Terrible Hollywood stuff that you can't usually have like

brass projectiles anymore.

so, uh, copper would be definitely your next best bet.

Again, a really hard metal.

both of those in a profile that is advantageous for penetration.

So if you think of, um,

bullet that's pointy, fat in the back, kind of like a boat, if that boat hits

something, Like a buoy, it's gonna shift its direction away from that, uh, unless

you hit it directly on the point, but more than likely it's gonna encounter

something and shift its trajectory.

What you want is something that's gonna crush through the buoy and continue

its straightforward path, so that you're not getting deflected off of

bones and things like that toward the objective of the central nervous system.

So, a flat nose instead of a pointy nose or a round nose,

that flat nose helps it, keep.

More of its weight forward instead of all the weight in the back being tail heavy.

and then that flat nose with those kind of hard edges on.

There's a term called me plat, which is like the flat face of a bullet.

The hard edges on that me plat are going to allow it to cut and crush its

way through things instead of being kind of like split off of its path.

Um, and then again, you would want something that was heavy for caliber.

Uh, one of the things to note with that is, know, if your gun like a 10

millimeter usually shoots projectiles roughly in the like 100 and.

60 to 220, uh, grain weight class.

Um, so the projectile itself, how much it weighs, um, you would want

something heavy for caliber, so on the 200 grain or 220 grain as opposed

to the 180 or the one 60 grain.

that I know is probably gonna sound really technical for a lot of people

who might not be super involved.

Um, but there's about 15.3 grains in a gram, or grams in a grain.

Grains in a gram.

Yeah.

even.

It's confusing on this

end.

you're the one that

knows, I never knew

about, you know, the ammunition, but you explaining it the way you

did it com it makes a lot of sense.

I just always remember hearing hollow points or do the most damage,

but everything has a purpose.

Yeah.

So purpose made ammunition, absolutely hollow points.

Um, if you were thinking of human defense protecting yourself against

another violent human or something like that, um, hollow points are

extremely safe, in terms of not over penetrating, going through somebody that.

You know, you might be shooting at that's attacking you and

causing damage on the other side.

Or if you miss an astray, hits a wall, it's gonna deliver more energy to

the wall and have less past the wall.

Um, so you would see all like law enforcement typically all, you

know, people who are concealed carrying a handgun for protection

or something, they would usually opt for hollowpoint ammunition.

does do more damage than poking a small hole.

However, um, When it comes to, you know, a bear handguns that have like hollowpoint

ammunition, um, they're gonna get caught and stopped in the layers of hy and fat

and tissue before they reach those vital areas, that they might have reached, uh,

on, you know, the average human in terms of how our body, our, our bodies are

designed and how, uh, our tissues are kind of formulated and our bone structure is.

Do you have a bear encounter story that is really fascinating to hear

about, that you'd want to share with us?

you know, I don't have any crazy cool, fascinating ones.

the one that I have that was really just interesting, I kind

of alluded to, uh, how archery hunting goes and that sort of thing.

Um, but I had my friend, uh, was bow hunting and I was calling,

so he was about, mm, you know, 30, 40 yards ahead of me.

, we're playing the wind direction where whatever's coming toward us, so it's

gonna encounter him first, then me, but they're not gonna catch our wind first.

Um, so I was back making some calls, at that we had just kind

of seen some sign and knew there was an elk, like in that zone.

so he's up front.

I'm in the back, I'm making some calls and I have a tree in front

of me, so I can't really see him.

hindsight, I might have played this a little differently, but this is

like very early in my hunting career.

As I'm making these calls, all of a sudden I hear, uh, him walking toward me going,

Hey, hey, Tony, this and that, whatever.

I'm like, Hey, be quiet.

There's, there's elk out here, you know?

goes, no, no, there's a bear up here.

And I was like, oh, gosh.

So I immediately, you know, drew out my pistol.

it kind of like took us, uh, look around the tree, got visual information, and

then from there I didn't, um, actually see that one, like in a close proximity.

It was already 70 yards away or so.

By the time he had to kind of made his way toward me.

but yeah, that was one of those things where he actually only had

his bear spray on him at that time.

And, um, again, early in the hunting career, you know, one of the first

elk hunts we ever went on out here.

and that was a kind of an eye-opener for him.

He was like, all right, you know what, like I'm definitely

gonna keep my pistol on me.

I'm not gonna be relying on someone else.

Especially when, you know, most bear attacks are happening in

this like three second zone.

And I mean, if you're that far away, that three seconds is gone

before any assistance is coming.

So, yeah, it was kind of an eye-opening thing for both of us in terms of, you

know, me making sure that people say there's power in numbers, you know, bears

don't usually attack or are not as likely to attack people in groups of 2, 3, 4.

Um, and you get better odds the more people you have with you.

Um, but when you're not in a direct group, if you're not within 20

yards of each other or invisible, invisibility of each other, maybe a

bear doesn't see the other person.

that's when you.

Lose that effectiveness.

So it's important to make sure that, you know, that's part of the thoughts that

go on, especially in the Elk cunning out here by, you know, wonderful Jackson.

You end up being in a lot of grizzly bear country at the same time.

real quick, three second zone.

How much distance is between individual and a bear in a three second zone?

Gosh, it's so tough.

So the main types of attacks you deal with is gonna be like surprise attacks.

So you're walking through some dense brush, you turn the corner and boom.

You're in the bear's bubble, you know, you're within 20 feet,

20 yards, whatever have you.

the bear realizes, Hey, I don't have time to figure out what's going on.

I just need to start with aggression, get really violent.

And then from there I can discern whether or not I'm safe or not.

so, you know, that might be a one and a half second type of deal

where it's very close proximity.

Um, the other situations that you might get in is where you have

like, a mom with cubs or they have to enact some type of defensive.

behavior so that the Cubs are protected, or a food pile or something like that.

If they have some gut pile or something they've been eating on,

they're gonna wanna protect that as a resource so that they don't, you know,

lose their livelihood essentially.

those can typically, it's happen, happen from a little farther away.

So you're talking, you know, 50, 80 yards, something like that.

most of the time, when you look at how fast bears can run, you know, anywhere

from 35 to potentially, you know, 45 miles an hour or something like that,

which that's like way on the fast end, but maybe circumstances align or something,

that cuts distance pretty quick.

You know, you're talking about covering 50 yards or so and less

less than four seconds faster than most human football players are

gonna cover that distance for sure.

so that doesn't give you a lot of time to react, like go through your.

Loop of figuring out everything that's going on, like you first have

to see it, then you have to decide on something, then you have to

actually act and react to that thing.

so yeah, I would say, if there was a bear aggressive with within that 30

yard zone or, or potentially farther, you know, I might get ready and be

willing to, you know, take shots if necessary or deploy some type of

defensive means if necessary, to, uh, to make sure that I'm staying safe or

the people in my party are staying safe.

Okay.

it's all

a matter of how fast that bear

is gonna

move.

It really is.

And that's one of the unknowns, you know, I mean, there is comp, like you

said, there's no guarantee bear spray or a handgun is gonna protect you.

You may well walk around a corner, a bear sees you, it attacks you,

it, it snaps your neck or something.

And that was it.

You never had time to react.

You never had time to grab out and deploy anything.

that is totally one of the possibilities of being out in the woods.

Tony, we gotta wrap things up.

this has been fascinating.

I

with my curious mind, I could sit here

for hours asking you questions.

so appreciate you

taking the time.

To speak with me today, but also to produce something that's usable for

people so they can make their own decisions when they are recreating

and enjoying the wilderness outdoors.

how can people

reach out to you and also where is your book available?

yeah, my book is on Amazon.

You can search, uh, handgun selection for Grizzly Bear Defense, and

you'll find it on there for sure.

Um, e-book and paperback.

For, for reaching me, contacting me.

Um, I'm happy to be contacted through the Jacksonville shooting experience.

Um, if you want, I'd be happy to, you know, throw my email or something

in the, in the show notes if you wanted to, you know, give a, a

personal plug or anything like that.

definitely you guys can,

uh, find me around.

Okay.

Well thank you Tony.

I really appreciate your.

Time in, in this informative conversation and responsible use of handguns

and for people to be educated and knowledgeable about, what they need for

when they go out into the backcountry.

Great.

It's a pleasure being on.

Thanks for having me, I really

appreciate it.

You're welcome.

Great to see you, Tony.

Appreciate it.

​To learn more about Tony Molina and his book, visit the jackson hole

connection.com, episode number 243.

Thank you everybody for listening today Get out and share this

podcast with your friends and families, Instagram and Facebook.

If you know, if somebody would like to be a guest, send us their name.

We'd love to have.

Take care everybody.

Look forward to seeing you back here for the next episode of